S E54: Communicating for Repair in Relationships with Rach + Cam

Hi.

Hey.

We're doing another podcast episode.

We are.

Apparently.

We've just got.

This is just what we do now.

So much to say this weekend.

Yeah.

But so I wanted to.

We're.

We're in the process of watching some videos and finding some resources on healthy communication because of an issue we're having with a family member.

We're trying to handle that in a healthy way, and it got us talking about our own marriage and our communication and how we've worked really, really hard on it.

So we wanted to kind of talk about, I guess, like, the standards that we have in communication, because we both have been divorced.

Not from each other.

We are each other's second marriage, and we've both learned a lot as far.

As, like, first is the worst, second is the best.

Third is the one with the hairy chest.

Let's not go there.

I'm not up for that.

Yeah.

I think we're.

We're working on making this one stick, huh?

Yeah.

Which we're a couple of years in.

Yep.

And I still really like you.

I still really like you.

Oh, that's cute.

You're so cute.

But no, in all seriousness, we've worked very, very hard on our communication.

We've also both been in therapy for years, and so between, you know, learning from the failures of our first marriages and really working hard on ourselves, even well before we met, that was one of the things that I was like, oh, okay, maybe this guy is the real deal.

Just finding out that you'd been in therapy for a while.

Yeah.

We actually had probably one of the most intense disagreements of our entire marriage this week.

And the way that it was handled, I think is just a really good example of why the things that we've put into practice work.

And so we wanted to talk about that.

Yeah.

So before we get started, if anyone has questions or, you know, things that they'd like us to talk about in future episodes.

Not all of our episodes are going to be both of us.

A lot of them are going to be just me.

This is my podcast.

It's your podcast.

I am Grit.

You are.

I am Grit.

I'm Grit.

Yeah.

This is.

This is.

Whoa.

Okay.

This is the podcast that is named after me.

We actually do not have the same last name.

We do not.

I'm sad about that a little bit.

Me, too.

But I. I'm also not gonna change my name.

I love you so much.

I love you, too.

And that's a conversation for another time.

But, yeah, it's a decision we've come to that well, actually, I told you, when we first started talking, I was like, yeah, I'm not changing my last name ever again because I changed it from my first marriage, and then it took me two years of divorcing and post divorce proceedings to be able to get my name back.

And my name means a lot to me.

My name is actually my.

My actual given birth name is Rachel Grit.

G, R, I, T. Spelled just like the movie True Grit.

And so.

Yeah.

But anyways, all that to say if you have any questions or anything that you'd like us to talk about or dive into.

Neither of us are experts.

We are not educated in this field.

This is just something that we've worked on a lot in our own marriage and in ourselves.

And so we want to talk about what healthy communication looks like, especially healthy conflict.

So do you want to share what our conflict was this week?

Sure.

Okay.

I can kick it off.

Okay, great.

Take it away.

So in our home, Rachel does all the grocery shopping and all the cooking.

I like cooking, and I do lots of other stuff.

Grocery shopping and cooking is.

Is like a big job.

And so just because it's singular doesn't mean it's not huge.

But I was.

I was putting away the groceries the other day.

We have a cabinet with all of our baking supplies in it because Rachel likes to bake.

I like when Rachel bakes.

And so when I was kind of trying to clean up and put.

And put things away, I have found that we have multiple, mostly empty bags of chocolate chips.

Our kids are chocolate chip fiends for chocolate chip pancakes.

Love chocolate chip pancakes.

Love eating just like, straight up chocolate.

Chips, stuff like that.

Various.

Each kid has their own favorite type of chocolate chip.

And so I had put all of the partial bags of chocolate chips in a gallon bag so that they would get used up before we buy more bags of chocolate chips.

And I was putting away the groceries the other day, and Rachel had bought a new bag of chocolate chips.

No, no, no, no, no.

That is not what happened the week prior.

Pause, pause.

Okay.

You were putting away the bag of bags of chocolate chips because you would put them all in a bag.

Right.

And I had made pancakes, and so I had the bag out so that I could use the bags.

Okay.

And when you were putting that bag away, then you were like, hey, why did we buy more chocolate chips?

But when we started talking about this, it was in the car after.

After dropping Coulson off at school.

Right, well, right before.

I think it's when we started.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so I was Just kind of trying to give some, like, background on, like, what I was thinking of in the car on the way to dropping Coulson off at school, I got impatient.

What?

I got impatient.

And so I was trying.

Trying to bring it up carefully and cautiously.

Okay.

But I think something about that was upsetting for you.

Well, you can explain your sure feelings.

So you had.

When we were here at home, before we had left to take Colson to school, you were like, hey, why did we buy another bag of chocolate chips?

And I was like, we didn't.

And you were like, no, we did.

I was like, no, I don't think that we did.

Like, I didn't buy any.

I haven't bought any chocolate chips in a couple weeks.

Like, okay.

So then in the car, you were like, hey, you're right.

Yeah.

I don't think you're trying to gaslight me, but I feel a little bit insane because, like, I swear I just put a bag of chocolate chips away.

And so I started to feel defensive, and I. I did snap a little bit.

I was like, cameron, like, I don't know what to tell you.

I didn't buy any chocolate chips recently.

And also, like, oh, no.

Oh, Cameron was just assaulted by our dog.

That hurt.

Oh, no, Ranger, you hurt Daddy.

She's like, I'm not even sorry.

Are you okay?

Yeah, I'm fine.

Okay.

I, like, pulled out our Instacart app, and I was like, yep.

Okay.

This week, didn't buy chocolate chips.

Last week, didn't buy chocolate chips.

It has been four orders since I ordered chocolate chips.

Like, the last time I purchased some was, like, two and a half weeks ago.

Blah, blah, blah.

And I fully went into defensive mode.

And then we got to school, and I went inside, and of course, we're, like, trying to talk kind of quietly.

I am still very uncomfortable with having discussions about conflict in front of the kids.

Like, I want to intentionally get better at that because I think it's really healthy for kids to see.

I got hit by the dog again.

Okay, maybe.

Okay, Ranger, get off.

Ranger.

Ranger, off.

You gotta chill, dog.

You're being way too crazy.

I think it's really good for kids to see conflict be resolved and, like, relational repair actually happen.

But I still feel really unsafe when that happens.

So that's something I'm working on.

But so we were just kind of, like, very quietly talking, and then it kind of got to the point where we, like, stopped talking.

And I was really nervous to get back in the car because I'm like, okay, we're gonna have to deal with this.

Like, I really don't want to.

Because.

Because I was feeling like, okay, this job that you have taken on, you being me in this case, I'm talking about myself in the third person.

But I'm feeling like, okay, I have taken on all of the grocery shopping, all of the meal planning, all of the meal prepping, like, everything food related pretty much.

And now you're telling me I'm doing it wrong.

Like, and I had even said.

And this was something that I remember stepping at you, like, which then I. I later apologized for.

Cause I was like, ooh.

I did not.

I.

Look, I was communicating out of a place of feeling unsafe.

And I allowed that to inform how I was talking to you.

I was like, well, then you can help then, like, you can help with the meal, with the grocery planning, and like, the grocery shopping.

If.

If this is such a big deal to you.

And I like to walk to Colson into school.

And I remember, like, walking back to the car.

Even when you said that, I reacted defensively and said, like, I've been trying to.

Yeah.

And I was like, no, you have not.

Yeah.

And so we.

We both very much were like, coming from a place of.

I've been trying to fix this.

I don't know what the issue even is, because I remember being like, why the heck is chocolate chips such a big deal for you?

Like, what is going on?

So I walked Colson into school, walking back to the car, and I'm like, like, okay, how can we actually start to repair this?

So, like, got in the car.

I was like, okay.

I did not react in a way that was healthy.

And I'm sorry.

Like, the way that you feel is really important to me.

So, like, let's talk about it.

And we ended up like, I don't want to detail, like, every single.

Like, I don't want to give a play by play of the whole thing.

But long story short, we basically came to the conclusion that the main issue is that our house is very small and we have a lot of stuff and it's difficult to manage.

So where my perspective specifically regarding the chocolate chips, which.

It was not about chocolate chips.

No, not really.

And like, when you had brought that up too, I think this was even before you dropped Colson off.

I was like, yeah, she's probably.

This is probably not about chocolate chips.

Yeah.

Like, this specific thing was frustrating.

I'm like, I specifically put all these in a bag to try to solve this problem, but I didn't talk to you about it.

Right.

I didn't bring it up to you.

When I put them all in this gallon bag, I was just trying to solve the problem.

No, you did.

You were like, hey, I put all these in here.

And so then when I went to make pancakes, I was like, oh, great.

They're all right here.

Wow, what a great idea.

And I even, like, used up a couple bags.

And so from my perspective, I think I was also riding.

Not riding that high, but, like, I was also like, wow, like, the system's working.

And then you came in, and we're like, so.

So the system's broken.

And what I heard was like, the system's broken because you're doing it wrong.

Which is not what you said.

Right.

And so it just, like, we both were already in a place of defensiveness.

And so through talking about it and going like, okay, I'm feel something that we do a lot in conflict, which we really don't have much conflict.

No.

But something that we do when there is conflict is like, hey, I don't know if the reaction I'm having right now or the feelings I'm having right now are an appropriate reaction.

Can we talk about what I'm feeling?

And so even if something I'm feeling is completely unreasonable or something you're feeling is completely unreasonable, we kind of have set the standard of, like, the other one is like, you.

You do this all the time, and you voice this really well, where you're like, well, that's what you're feeling, and that's a reality.

Like, you are feeling that feeling.

That is an objective truth.

Feelings are not right or wrong.

Yeah, let's talk about the feeling.

And so we were able to kind of come to the conclusion that, okay, we both are feeling overwhelmed by our home.

And I was looking at the chocolate chip situation as, like, I would rather have more chocolate chips on hand that we need than be out and have the kids be upset set, or we're not able to make cookies or whatever the case may be.

So, like, it's really not a big deal to have extra chocolate chips.

Meanwhile, I also have a much lower THR or a much higher threshold.

I'm sorry for things are messy.

We need to do something about it.

And that was one of the things that we came to, was realizing, okay, Cam often does, like, the majority of the housework, and I often feel guilty about that.

Take the laundry, for example.

When I was a single mom, my, like, little trigger, my little light switch that would go off to do my laundry was not having anything to wear.

And I was just so overloaded with everything going on around me.

My multiple legal battles and trying to run a business and trying to figure out how to be a mom for the first time and living on my own for the first time, and da, da, da, da.

And I'm still used to that threshold.

But your threshold is much lower for when the laundry needs to be done.

Yeah.

And the result then is you end up doing a lot more of the laundry.

Right.

Well, I think my threshold is, like, the laundry basket's full.

I'm like, okay, if the laundry.

If the bag.

Like, we have a bag.

Laundry bag is full, then I need to do laundry.

Or the kitchen sink is full, need to do dishes.

Yeah.

And so something that we had talked about because I was like, okay, I want things to feel fair.

I want the amount of effort that we put out to feel fair.

And, like, you very sweetly were like, well, I don't feel like it's unfair.

Like, grocery shopping and meal planning and prepping and all of, like, dealing with the food is a huge job.

However.

Yeah.

Like, let's get on the same page about it, because I don't want it to just be.

Well, I don't see it.

And you do.

Therefore, it's your responsibility to get it done if you want it done.

And I think, like, I hear that so often, like, on social media, common complaints in marriage.

Or like, well, I'll do.

Like, I'll help.

You just gotta tell me what you want done.

I think I'm that one in the relationship where I'm like, I don't see it.

I don't see that there's a need to do laundry or, sure, there's some dishes in the sink, but, like, that's not the most pressing thing right now.

Like, I.

It's very easy for me to write stuff off and be like, this doesn't.

This is not on my plate as urgent right now.

And I don't think that that's fair.

What am I trying to say?

I don't think that should just be okay.

Well, you see it and I don't.

And it's important to you and not to me.

Therefore, if you want it done, you need to get it done.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, like, marriage is a partnership.

It's a team.

And so, like, if there's one person.

And I did not do this well in my first marriage, I can very clearly say that, like, I was in the opposite position in my first marriage where, like, I had a much higher tolerance for things not being clean or tidy.

In my first marriage.

And so I was the one that would, like, come home, not do ting.

I would take care of the kids and do other things, but, like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do a whole lot of cleaning because I didn't see it.

Yeah, right.

So I understand.

I think that's part of it too, is I understand where you're coming from.

Yeah, right.

It's like, okay, yeah, like, I, I think it's obvious and I can see it, but I understand that, like, that's just not your brain's working.

And like, this was an issue in my first marriage as well, but it was the same dynamic where I just did not see things that needed to be done.

My ex husband had come from a house where everything was always spick and span and tidy.

And I remember, like, I would ask him constantly, I think we need to.

Clarify, like, spick and spin and tidy is not the same as, like, Looking unlived.

Yeah.

Like, I am not.

I'm not looking for a situation where the house doesn't look like it's lived in.

Well, someone lives there.

You also haven't requested, like, this is unacceptable.

We need to change, like, the condition of our house.

I think it's something that we're, we're both constantly working towards.

But like, yeah, you haven't been like, rachel, this is unacceptable.

You got to get it together.

Yeah.

But like, so my little anecdote, like, my ex husband and I never really talked about, like, hey, this is our agreed upon standard for our home.

This feels fair.

You know, he's working, I'm not.

So therefore I'm going to handle this.

It just kind of got to a point where I was like, make me a list.

I was the person in the marriage being like, make me a list.

And it got to the point and now I look back and I'm like, ooh, this was not the right way to handle this.

He was gone for a business trip and we had.

I remember this.

Yeah, we, we had agreed that he would put stuff on a list for me to clean and I would just do it and he wouldn't do it.

And I thought that was unreasonable.

I'm like, dude, like, literally all I'm doing is asking for you to tell me what needs to be cleaned and then I'll do it and so I can have some empathy for, you know, husbands typically are the ones that are complained about on social media where it's like, well, I'll help.

Just give me a list.

It's like, no, that's not your wife's responsibility.

So now looking back, I'm like, yeah, this was not my husband's responsibility.

I needed to, like, put the work in and, like, figure out, okay, what.

How can we achieve our agreed upon standard?

But so he had gone on this business trip, and I was so frustrated that he wouldn't use the list that we had agreed on.

And so I created a bunch of memes about putting things on the list.

And it was like.

Like, this.

The meme of, like, the skeleton sitting on a bench.

And I. I put the caption, like, me waiting for you to put stuff on the freaking list.

And then, like, the Uncle Sam poster, that's like, I want you to join the US Army.

Whatever.

It was like, I want you to put stuff on the freaking list.

And so he came home, and the AR condo was just, like, decorated with these memes.

And now looking back, I'm like, I could have handled this so differently.

And so I really like how we were able to kind of talk through what is the actual issue here, hear the other person without just going, well, okay, that's your feeling.

And so I'll work around your feeling.

And I'm really proud of how we were able to come to the idea of, okay, we're gonna try to tackle the kitchen and the laundry every day as a team.

And so, like, the next day, there's two things.

Yeah, it's just two things.

Let's start with this every day, because our goal together is to kind of keep the house a bit cleaner.

And so we'll start with this, and then once.

Once we get that down, then maybe add something in or something else.

Yeah.

And just kind of, like, start creating that habit.

Yeah.

And so right now, we're sitting on the couch surrounded by a bunch of folded laundry, and it's working.

Yeah.

And, like, the next morning, I was so excited.

I, like, got.

Because I like to get up early.

I, like, got up early.

And as I was walking out of our room, I, like, vaguely noticed that the laundry bag was full.

And I was like, do it.

And so I, like, threw a load of laundry in.

And when Cam woke up, I was like, hey, hey, guess what?

I started a load of laundry.

And you were like, your response made such a big difference.

You were like, awesome.

Like, thank you so much.

And it's such a silly thing.

Like, oh, wow, great job, Rachel.

You threw in a load of laundry.

But not only was that building into the repair that we had made, showing appreciation, I think, is always such a huge part of any relationship.

And I just, like, I felt so silly and like, smooth, small and cute in that moment of like, yeah, I did a good job.

Like, did.

But following through is hard.

It is.

It's very hard.

It was really hard.

But so it should be like, the passion and empathy that you showed in that moment of like, for you, that's so easy for you.

You're like, well, duh, the laundry needs to be done.

And like, it wasn't in any sort of a.

Like, so am I going to get a thank you?

It was like, I want you to, to really see that.

Like, I heard you and I'm trying to do something about it.

Yeah.

And, yeah.

And so I think kind of going back to like, what we see, you know, couples complaining about online, which should never be where you go to complain.

You, I mean, just don't even complain to other people.

Yeah.

Like, no one else needs to hear your.

That's just going to be like talking crap about your spouse.

I will say I do think that there's value, particularly anonymously, in asking for others input online.

When it comes from the position of like, I'm wrestling with how I'm thinking about this.

I want to hear other people's perspective, especially when you're not in maybe the safest relationship.

Sure.

Like, you and I talk to each other about.

Okay, so when you're telling me this, I'm having this reaction.

I don't know if that's like, not that it's valid because all feelings are valid, but like, I don't know if this is a proportional reaction.

Yeah.

Like, can we talk about it?

So I think, I think even just to define, like, what, what we mean by like, valid feelings is it's like you might think that your partner is.

Feeling is unreasonable.

Right.

Like, how could that possibly make you mad?

I thought it doesn't make any sense.

It was really silly that you were mad about chocolate chips.

That's really silly.

What's going on?

That's very silly because that is a tiny part of making things organized.

It's in a shut cabinet and taking up very little space.

When I got over myself and was like, okay, I didn't handle this well.

Even if I feel like this is a silly feeling, I want to understand it because I never want you to feel like you're not heard or like your voice doesn't matter.

And so, yeah, I had to like, get over myself a little bit and go, okay, even if I feel like this feeling is silly, I want to understand it.

And then it turned out it wasn't about freaking chocolate chips at all.

Yeah.

So then I was the silly one being like, really?

You're mad about chocolate chips?

No, Rachel.

No, Rachel.

This very smart 34 year old man is not mad about freaking chocolate chips.

Chill.

Which I.

That's not how I talk to myself.

I have worked a lot on my self talk and I always call myself like babe or rage.

I'm always like, yeah, babe, you got this.

But yeah, just like taking a moment to get over your initial reaction.

I, oh, I saw something online the other day that I really liked.

I wish I would have saved it.

I don't know who said it, but it was essentially your first reaction to something is what society has conditioned you to believe.

Your second thought about something defines who you are.

So like, so like your initial like reaction of like, well, wow, this is really silly.

That's not who you are.

When you catch yourself and you're like, well, hold on a second.

Is this, you know what, I'm going to try to use a little bit more grace, like correcting your own thought.

That's who you really are.

Yeah.

Well, I think that like you've done a lot of work and it's awesome on yourself to like get to the point where like, okay, I'm gonna give myself a break, think about this and then get to the point where I'm gonna choose what my response is gonna be.

Yeah, that's.

That's really impressive.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

I think you're really impressive.

Thank you.

You've also done a lot of work on yourself.

Yeah.

And it is impressive.

Thanks.

Yeah, I just wanted to finish saying the thought around validating someone's feelings because I think a lot of times, especially men can think if I'm validating someone's feelings, I'm telling them that they're right and it's not true.

Acknowledging that someone is feeling something is not saying.

At least it shouldn't be saying that their feeling is appropriate for the situation.

It might be a completely inappropriate feeling or it could be something that's happening that doesn't make any sense at all.

It could be a waiter brings you the wrong drink and you get so angry that you chuck it in their face.

That's a very inappropriate response and you shouldn't really be getting that angry at that.

But what you're validating is like, yes, you are angry.

Yeah, you are feeling an intense amount of anger.

I don't agree with that response.

But you are dealing with that feeling right now.

Yeah.

And like, yes, that person would need to do some work on their anger.

But you can still say and admit you are feeling angry, even if I don't agree with either the feeling or the level of the feeling, regardless.

And I think that's what you were telling saying that I tell you, even if you say, like, I don't know if my feeling is appropriate or not, is that it might not be, but you're feeling it.

Yeah, it's.

I think it's the same thing as, like.

Like, okay, you have the flu.

Some people when they're sick are big babies.

Right.

And they just, like, can't do anything.

That doesn't mean they're not sick.

Right.

They.

They just are the level to which they are feeling it and how they are handling being sick is different, but they just are sick, I think too.

Like separating your partner from their emotion and going, okay, it's me and you interrogating this feeling, not you and your feeling.

Interrogating me or demanding validity.

Being able to go, okay, yes, your reaction.

Because I think you and I are both very sensitive to feeling emotionally unsafe.

Sure.

And we both can tend to.

I think we handle it in a really healthy way.

But I think we probably have a lower threshold than a lot of people for like, oh, I'm in trouble, or, you know, oh, someone's mad at me.

I've done something wrong.

And so being able to kind of take a step back from that and go, okay, let's name the feeling and let's try to dig into it together and understand it together.

Like when I bring you, hey, you said this.

I'm having this reaction.

I don't know if this is valid or if this is appropriate.

That's me going, hey, here's a thing I want to talk about together.

Right.

You are so great about like, yeah, okay, let's dig in.

Help me understand where is this coming from?

What do you think the underlying issue is?

And then it's us together tackling the actual issue instead of me fighting to be heard it.

Me and my emotion are versus you.

It just changes the dynamic completely to us versus the problem.

Yeah.

Not me versus you.

I think the worst thing, because I think this is more often something that men do.

The worst thing you can do with your wife is if she's coming to you and saying, like, hey, I'm upset that you're doing this or this, that you said whatever is try to prune that they shouldn't be feeling that way.

Yeah.

All that's going to do is make it so they stop talking to you.

They Stop sharing things with you because you're not safe.

You're not someone that they can share with.

Yeah.

Because you're just going to tell them that they're wrong and that they are.

Invalid for what they're feeling.

Yeah.

And two, you know, I think there are plenty of times where the reaction I'm having or the feeling I'm feeling is not what I would choose.

Sure.

Having half the time I. I don't.

Not half the time because, like, I think I'm a pretty decently rational human being.

But there are times where I'm like, I'm really frustrated with myself that I'm having this reaction because I don't want to feel this way about this.

And so it's entirely possible that if your partner comes to you and is like, hey, I'm having this reaction, they don't want to be having that reaction.

Right.

And so by turning it on them and going, well, why are you having that reaction?

They don't know.

It's entirely possible.

They don't understand it themselves.

But now they are the enemy.

Yeah.

You have made it so that they are feeling.

Feeling unreasonable.

And now in addition to them wrestling with their reaction and having to, like, justify it to themselves, understand it themselves, they're also having to do the same with you instead of going, okay, I know that you are going to be safe for me to communicate with.

I don't understand this myself.

Let's tackle this together.

Yeah.

I think too, like, even trying to approach and have this conversation about the feeling won't work with everyone.

Yeah.

That's a really good point.

If someone comes to you and says, you made me angry.

No, I did something and you felt angry as a result.

Yeah.

I like, your own actions do not make people feel things.

They feel things as a result of your actions.

Yeah.

Someone putting their feelings, making you responsible for their feelings is very, very bad.

That's not a good sign.

Absolutely.

And it's just not healthy.

Yeah.

Unfortunately, in order for there to be a healthy relationship, both people have to want it more than they want to feel personally vindicated.

Yeah.

Or justified or whatever the case may be.

Like, I think things work with us because you and I have both come to the conclusion that we want a healthy marriage more than we want to feel.

Right.

Or we want to feel like we are getting what we want or, you know, whatever the particular situation may be.

And that's just not the case in all relationships.

I mean, I've been in multiple relationships where I'm like, oh, this is not healthy.

And there have been plenty of times where I look back and I'm like, oh, I was being the unhealthy one.

Right.

In this situation.

But yeah.

So unfortunately, it's not always safe to be vulnerable to someone.

But I think that goes, like.

I think often that's put in a perspective of, like, women not feeling safe with men.

But it is absolutely the case sometimes the other way around.

Yeah.

Like, men are not safe with women.

Yeah.

I mean, we can only control our own behavior.

So the first and only thing you can really do as far as, like, taking control of the situation is looking internally and going, okay, where could I be contributing?

Like, in the case of what happened this past week, I was not engaging to listen right off the bat.

I was engaging from a place of feeling unsafe and trying to make myself feel safe again.

Right.

And that was not constructive.

And so even though there were things that I could look at and go, well, you didn't handle this right.

You didn't do this how I would have preferred you to.

The first step for both of us, both of us feeling safe enough to have a constructive conversation that led to repair was, okay, I didn't handle this right.

Because especially when you are in a relationship with someone who is healthy or has been healthy or can be healthy, the first step to lowering those defenses is owning what you can own.

Which then when both people are healthy, when both.

Well, at least when both people are attempting to operate in a healthy way, that's when the defenses get lowered enough to actually work on it together and lead to genuine repair.

Yeah.

And I think a difficult situation for someone to be in is either one being the healthy one and the other person is not, or thinking that you are the healthy one and the other person is not.

Both of those, I think, are difficult situations to be in.

If you think you're the healthy one and your partner's not, you should be able to one identify many areas that you are contributing to the issue and making it worse.

And the result, the response is not to try to teach the other person.

Yeah.

Because then you're just controlling them.

Right.

I don't know what the.

The appropriate response would be in that situation.

It sucks.

It probably is terrible.

Absolutely.

But it does make me think about, you know, those who are still in a marriage where there is not that reciprocation and what to do in that case.

Like, all you can do is try to take the next right step.

Right.

Because it is like, that's really.

You can't look too far into the future.

Like you just kind of have to look at the, what's, the, what's, what situation am I in and what is literally the next decision or the next step that I'm need to take.

Yeah.

And what, what is the right thing to do?

And there are like, there's, there's always the opportunity to take personal ownership of the situation.

But there's also a point that comes where you end up just crossing the line of self respect where you are trying to do everything right.

You are trying to.

Obviously no one's ever going to be a hundred percent right or do things 100% correctly.

But where you are attempting to enter the arena of healthy communication and the other person is just completely resisting.

Yeah.

And things do get to a point where it is no longer safe to engage.

Right.

And you know, there aren't blanket statements that we can make about when it's healthy or okay to walk away.

You and I are very much believers in biblical divorce.

Yep.

That was a big, a big part of us.

Like even before we started dating, we tried to take the first month that we knew each other.

We both immediately were like, okay, yeah, I really like this person.

However, we don't want to get clouded by romantic feelings and that pesky oxytocin, and we want to make sure that we're both biblically, like eligible to date.

There's a lot that goes into the decision to end a relationship, specifically a marriage.

But you know, these, these relationship principles.

And I mean, so we like took it that seriously, even though we weren't the ones to make that decision.

Yeah, we did not initiate our respective divorces.

We were on the receiving end.

I don't think we need to like share all of those details at this point.

No.

But yeah, we were not the ones to initiate our divorces.

And so for those who are kind of in a situation, we're talking specifically about marriage.

But this really can be applied to friendships.

Parent child relationships, mentor mentee relationships, non marriage romantic relationships, employer relationships.

Like it, it really can be applied to everything.

There is a point at which walking away, taking some space, even temporarily, is the only safe option.

I mean, Jesus talks about, you know, at a certain point, if you are in a town and you are sharing your message and they just are not receiving it.

Shake the dust off your feet.

Jesus sets boundaries.

Yeah.

Jesus comes to a point with some people where he's like, okay, I'm not going to engage anymore.

And walking away from relationships where there is nothing healthy about continuing.

There were times with like the Pharisees where He was like, just literally disappear and I couldn't find him.

He'd be like, not the time to talk to you right now.

Right.

You're not willing to listen.

Yo, brutal vipers, I'm gonna teleport away.

Yeah.

I'm so curious about the actual mechanics of that.

Like, where would you like?

It's awesome.

It's really cool.

Jesus is so cool.

But yeah, and I think that's something that especially Christians can be made to feel is like, oh, well, if you walk away from a relationship, Jesus wouldn't do that.

Jesus wouldn't give up on someone.

Number one.

Jesus absolutely does walk away from relationships.

It's not giving up on someone if someone refuses to be in healthy relationship.

I think Matthew 15 or Matthew 18, I don't remember exactly, but outlines biblical conflict resolution.

When someone has sinned against you, first step is to go to them one on one, explain, hey, you hurt me.

Try to work it out.

And they don't listen.

You bring some other people with you, if they still don't listen.

You bring the issue before the church.

If they still don't listen.

Okay, you're done.

And that's.

We're like, we're made to feel so guilty about that.

But it is biblical walking away when there is no chance at healthy communication and multiple attempts have been made.

And it's clear that continuing on is crossing the line of self respect.

And I think this is the important part.

Continuing on would take resources away from other areas.

You can build into the kingdom.

That is when we need to look at walking away.

Yeah, it's tough.

It's very tough.

Yeah.

And I think we even just one of the videos we just watched, like from the situation that Rachel talked about at the very beginning, here was a guy who was basically trying to do this.

He was trying to like walk away and set boundaries.

And his father kept crossing those boundaries.

And he was like, it's not working.

I'm like, what do you mean it's not working?

It was a video with Dr. Henry Cloud, the guy who wrote co. Wrote the boundaries book.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, Dr. Dr.

Cloud was like, what do you mean it's not working?

And he said, are you not like ending communication with this person?

And I think Dr. Claude did.

Did a pretty good job with him.

But I think he could have been more clear in how he explained it of like, you're setting boundaries with this person and then ending communication, cutting ties to change their behavior.

And that's not the point.

The point of cutting ties and things like that is to protect yourself.

Yeah.

Not show them how they should behave.

Yeah.

He.

He made the really great point.

And this is such a great distinction.

Boundaries are not about controlling other people's behavior.

It's about outlining what your response is going to be when certain behavior arises so that you can protect yourself.

And the guy that had called in clearly was just heartbroken over the fact that his dad would not listen.

His dad would not change his behavior.

The son desperately wanted to continue a relationship with the dad, but the dad had absolutely no interest in changing his behavior.

And so what he was.

What it seemed like he was trying to do by calling in to Dr.

Cloud was figuring out, okay, what else can I do to get my dad to change?

Right?

When it's like, oh, buddy, you can't.

You've done everything you can.

It's on you now to protect yourself.

Yeah.

And he even asked.

He was like, well, isn't that vindictive?

If I cut my dad off, isn't that.

Isn't that not very Christlike?

And Dr. Claude's like, no, that's like, Jesus does this.

Jesus sets boundaries.

Jesus did that with Mary and his brothers.

Yeah.

At one point, he.

He says, like, I don't.

I don't know them.

They're not my.

They're not like, this is my family.

Yeah.

He was, like, speaking at a house.

Yeah.

And the people came to him and were like, hey, your mom and your brothers are at the door trying to.

They tried to pull him out because they were like, jesus, you're.

You're being crazy.

Yeah.

Like, what are you doing?

You're.

You're gonna get killed.

Yep.

And Jesus is like, nope, don't know them.

These are my mother and my brothers.

People here that are listening to me are my.

Are my family.

Yeah.

And that can feel really callous, especially when we've brought up with, like, turn the other cheek, meaning accept poor treatment from people.

Right.

When that's not at all what it means.

No.

Which can be a conversation for another time.

That's.

That's a different conversation.

That's very interesting.

Oh, that's fascinating.

I'm realizing the more that I learned about Jesus, how I have had the wrong impression.

Pretty much.

He's like a.

Like a social ninja.

He's a social ninja.

And he's a little bit like, malicious compliance.

Yeah.

Is a tool in his arsenal.

And.

Yeah.

For very specific reasons.

For very specific reasons.

Never to make people feel small, but to shine a spotlight on their behavior, which.

Ooh.

We saw a video this morning of there was a YouTuber.

I don't remember what his name was.

Yeah.

But he had had a whole bunch of his property stolen and ended up.

There was.

He had two security cameras around the gate of his property, and the thief had spray painted one of the cameras, but the other camera had captured his license plate, got a picture of his face even though he was wearing a mask, all of this stuff.

And the YouTuber ended up driving by this person's house, just completely happenstance, and ended up sitting, seeing the vehicles that he had seen stealing his property.

And so, you know, he calls the cops, they get a search warrant.

They end up.

The guy's like, no, no, I don't.

I don't have any of your stuff.

I don't know what you're talking about.

The cops get a search warrant, end up finding all the stolen property, and are like.

Like, bring it to this YouTuber and are like, okay, like, do you want to press charges?

It.

Not to mention everything that had stolen.

It was thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of stuff.

Stuff that had been stolen.

And the YouTuber's like, no, I don't want to press charges.

Like, I just want him to pay me back for the cameras.

And the guy is just like, the guy who had.

Who was the thief was just broken.

He's like, I don't know what I was thinking.

Like, it's not like, I need the money.

This was just blah, blah, blah.

Like, yes, I will pay you for your cameras.

Like, thank you so much.

And so.

And the guy's wife is standing there, and she has no idea what's going on.

She's just like, sobbing.

Yeah.

She's just like, oh, my gosh, this is terrible.

He's like, thank you so much for not pressing charges.

Blah, blah, blah.

And they go to hand the kid the money for the cameras, and he goes, no, I want you to keep it.

Like.

And the guy immediately, like, breaks down.

He's like, no, please take it.

Please take the money.

And the kid's like, no.

Like, I, like, basically, like, I care more about the lesson here.

Like, this is gonna stick with you.

I. I'm hopeful that you're not gonna do this again.

And I turned to Cam and I was like, this is exactly how Jesus would handle this situation where he shines a spotlight on the behavior.

And even you could.

I not.

And not in a public way.

Right.

Just to themselves.

Just.

Just.

It wasn't like a bunch of people.

It was ended up.

It Ended up being posted on social media.

But, like, he did use it to make money.

But in that conversation, the guy did not know, like, there wasn't a bunch a ton of people around.

The police were there, but there was not a ton of other people where he was like, see, this guy stole my stuff.

He need to embarrass him.

He didn't embarrass him in front of his face.

He embarrassed him later.

Yeah.

Which, which was.

Is not cool.

But yeah, he, like, it's the same as the Reddit story we read yesterday.

We read a Reddit story where, long story short, this dad has a daughter and the daughter's boyfriend showed up to dinner in a very vulgar T shirt, a T shirt that like referenced oral sex.

And it was just awful.

And instead of being like, get off my property, like, you can't date my daughter, blah, blah, he was like, here's some money, go buy a different shirt and come back.

Yeah, like there's a Walmart nearby.

Yep, go get a shirt.

And as the story unfolded, there were like five updates where eventually you see and you discover that this kid had been dared by his older brother, who the little brother had always been in the older brother's shadow, had always looked up to him, always wanted to impress him, and the older brother had like goaded him into wearing this shirt.

He was a 19 year old kid, so yes, he's legally an adult.

And so you find out that it provided this, like, the dad giving this kid money and being like, nope, go buy a different shirt.

The kid like the lesson that was there, giving him an opportunity to change his behavior and repair the relationship versus being like, nope, you're done.

Like, this is unacceptable behavior.

Get out of here.

You are clearly not the person I want dating my daughter.

The daughter had the opportunity to go to her boyfriend and go, hey, no, my dad told me what your shirt said.

All you told me was that my dad embarrassed you.

But no, now I know what the shirt said.

That was unacceptable.

You're gonna fix this.

The kid ended up, like, repairing the relationship, apologizing to the dad, paying the, like, paying him back for the shirt as a demand of the daughter.

The daughter had a chance to like, stand up for her own self worth and decide for herself what treatment she was going to accept.

Then the kid's parents ended up getting involved.

They all had dinner together and like, strengthened their relationship.

And now the kid has more of a backbone with his own brother now.

Like, it was just this beautiful story of allowing for there to be repair and behavior Change is so beautiful in relationships.

Yeah.

Like just like shining the spotlight on someone's behavior.

Yeah.

And not in a way that shames or embarrasses them, even though this kid was embarrassed, but like he was doing something embarrassing and allowing them to make the choice to be different in a non embarrassing, non shameful way.

Really sticks with people.

Yeah.

And repair, allowing for and seeking out and honestly, fighting for genuine repair in relationships is incredibly difficult.

It's not how our society operates, but it's how Jesus operates.

Yeah.

Now, like we've been saying, there does get to be a point where repair is just not possible because someone is not in that headspace.

Someone is not willing to do that.

Someone is not willing to lay down their own pride for the sake of the relationship.

And so if someone is in a relationship where you are not married and this is the dynamic, I would very strongly urge you to reconsider.

That relationship doesn't have to be permanent, but until someone is willing to put themselves in that position, they are not ready for marriage.

Would you agree with that?

Yeah.

Like, if you, if, if this is like a dating relationship and it's clear that they're not willing to.

Learn to be emotionally intelligent and emotionally safe, it's not going to be good.

Yeah.

I feel like society has taught us like all the like, oh, f. Your feelings.

Yeah.

I mean, especially for men.

Yeah.

We're supposed to be emotionless cavemen and that's just dumb stupid.

So if you want to like be a man who like actually cares for your wife and takes care of her well and protects her and is not a danger to her that you would need to protect her from yourself.

Yeah.

Then you've got to learn emotions, get learned feelings.

And I can confirm that when your wife feels safe with you, other things tend to be a little easier.

Things go well.

Things go well for you in certain areas of the day.

Yeah.

Just self sacrifice in order to be safe for the other person is a necessary part of healthy relationships.

And being able to gauge when that is beginning to cross the line of self respect is also crucially important.

Not all relationships can or should be salvaged.

Sometimes relationships, even the ones that seem like they should stick for life, can get in the way of, of your work for the kingdom.

And anything that gets in the way of us choosing Jesus and seeking Jesus and fighting for the kingdom, ultimately that's something that's, that's not there where it should be.

That's something that's in the place of or taking priority over our work for the Kingdom.

Well, you've got.

Okay.

Yes, 100%, I think.

And I know we're probably running real long here.

Okay.

But the.

I don't think that there's a.

Or there could be a trap there around.

Fighting for the kingdom.

Okay.

That doesn't mean you go stop people from sinning.

Yes.

That is not our job.

That's.

That's trying to take God's job from him.

Even God doesn't.

God doesn't even stop people from.

He just changes their heart.

Yeah.

Right.

He doesn't.

He doesn't go and prevent people from sinning.

Like, okay, Moses went up on the mountain.

Right.

Israelites melt all of Egypt's gold into.

A calf that God had provided for them.

Right.

God gave them this gold from Egypt.

Yep.

To.

To melt into a calf and they start worshiping it.

Yep.

God could have killed them all right there.

Yep.

Problem solved.

Soon gone.

Bye.

Bye.

Didn't.

I mean, he did.

He.

He.

He did.

Like the snake thing was.

Wasn't that later or was that pretty quickly?

I think that was before or after.

But in that circumstance, God did end up killing people or letting people die, I should say, because they.

He also gave them a way out in that circumstance, too.

Yeah.

They just have to make.

God just really wants you to make the choice to partner with him and let him decide what's good and what's evil and not make that decision for yourself.

Yeah.

Making that decision for yourself is eating from the tree of good and evil.

Ooh.

Yeah.

You're just doing the same exact thing as Eve.

That's a really fantastic point.

Yeah.

You're 100% right.

It is not our job, nor is it a possibility for us to just stop people from sinning.

And in the meantime, like, I mean, that is sin in and of itself because that's putting ourselves in the position of God.

Right.

And when we're so focused externally, we're going to have some huge internal blind spots.

Right.

Not to mention that God mentions so clearly in scripture that he doesn't want empty actions.

Empty obedience means nothing to him if it doesn't come from the heart.

Yeah.

You.

Someone going and saying, I need to stop this person from sinning is going, okay, God, you're not doing enough.

I know what's right.

Yep.

I'm going to stop this.

I'm going to go ahead and step.

In here because you.

You clearly don't have it handled.

Yep.

That's been huge for me lately of realizing certain things aren't inherently sin because of the action.

It's sin because of the heart posture.

You have to have to take the.

Action and you're, you could be super upset about it.

Like let that break your heart.

Yeah.

That someone's sinning.

Yeah, absolutely.

We should.

That should be heartbreaking.

Yeah.

That's having the heart of Christ.

That's like Jesus would be heartbroken.

God's heartbroken that people are sinning.

Yeah, absolutely.

But it is not our place to force people to stop sinning.

Yeah.

Now that doesn't mean that bringing things to people is wrong in every single circumstance.

It all comes back to the heart and seeking repair, seeking right relationship with God and with each other.

And so I think we've kind of come full circle.

But yeah, we don't have sound effects like a radio show so we have to make our own sound effects.

My applause sound effect is going off right now.

I didn't know we had those.

Yep.

I have a little, my little thing here.

I've got air horn.

APPLAUSE AND LAUGHTER Is the air horn.

Like, or is it like.

Ah, let's find out.

I, I can't hear it.

I know we'll have to go back and listen to it.

But yeah.

So thank you for joining us today.

If you have any questions.

Again, we are not professionals.

We are just people who have been in and participated in and contributed to a failed marriage and are now in a really wonderful Christ centered marriage.

And so we can only share from our personal experience.

We are not professionals.

So take everything we say with a grain of salt.

Talk to your therapist, read the Bible for yourself.

What is that equivalent?

Like we're not a doctor, I'm not going to give medical advice.

Yeah, we're not giving medical advice.

We're not giving psychological advice.

We're just sharing our experiences and what we've learned and what we're still learning even as recently as this week.

And just opinions on things.

Yeah, fair.

Thank you for being here, me talking to you.

Oh, you're welcome.

I live here.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Thank you for chatting with me on this.

So that's fine.

If you have questions or topics you want us to tackle, you can email me rachelachelgrit.com and I read every single email and yeah, thank you for spending some time with us today.

I've sent you emails before that you have not read.

You have not.

I can't think of one specifically, but I'm sure it's happened.

Yeah, sure you did.

Here we go again.

You hit the laughter button.

Because that was funny.

There you go.

I hit the button.

Okay.

Okay.

All right.

Well, shall we get on with our day?

We shall get on with our day.

All right.

Made everyone else get on with their day.

Yes.

So do those things you're supposed to do.

Kai 2 My outer pro, please.

Yes, absolutely.

Please do.

Yeah.

Thank you for joining us.

Make sure that you subscribe on whatever platform you're listening on.

If you found this episode helpful, share it with a friend.

That is always super, super helpful.

Yeah.

I hope that I will see you next time.

Bye.