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Redefining Purity: Moving Beyond Purity culture
In this episode, Rachel and her husband Cameron have an honest, grace-filled conversation about the topic of sexual purity and why it’s important to redefine purity beyond just sexual behavior. They discuss the issues with “purity culture” and how it can be damaging, especially for those who have experienced sexual trauma. Rachel and Cameron share their personal experiences and perspectives on maintaining purity in dating and marriage, emphasizing the importance of having a pure heart before God rather than just following rules.
Key Points with Timestamps:
The Issues with Reducing Purity to Just Sexual Purity [0:04:03 – 0:06:21]
The problems with the “purity culture” narrative that equates purity solely with sexual behavior [0:04:03 – 0:04:43]
How this narrow view can be damaging, especially for those who have experienced sexual assault or trauma [0:04:43 – 0:05:23]
The importance of recognizing that purity is about so much more than just sexual activity [0:05:23 – 0:06:21]
Purity of the Heart Over Outward Physical Purity [0:06:21 – 0:10:00]
Why purity of the heart and a genuine relationship with God is more important than just physical/sexual purity [0:06:21 – 0:07:21]
How an excessive focus on rules and technical adherence can miss the point of true obedience [0:07:21 – 0:08:40]
The need to redefine purity as a holistic concept, not just sexual behavior [0:08:40 – 0:10:00]
Maintaining Purity Through Relationship with God, Not Willpower Alone [0:14:26 – 0:19:17]
How relying on willpower and discipline alone is not enough to sustain purity [0:14:26 – 0:15:47]
The importance of having a genuine relationship with God as the foundation for purity [0:15:47 – 0:17:25]
Examples of physically removing themselves from tempting situations [0:17:25 – 0:19:17]
The Danger of Lukewarm, Cultural Christianity [0:35:00 – 0:40:00]
How “cultural Christianity” can miss the mark of true discipleship [0:35:00 – 0:37:19]
The difference between being a true disciple versus a nominal Christian [0:37:19 – 0:40:00]
Reflecting on Motivations for Purity [0:44:00 – 0:46:00]
The importance of examining the deeper reasons behind one’s desire for purity [0:44:00 – 0:45:15]
Using journaling prompts to uncover the true state of one’s heart [0:45:15 – 0:46:00]
Mentioned Links:
**These are affiliate links. Purchasing by clicking the links below help support the podcast!**
Garden City by John Mark Comer
The Insanity of God by Nik Ripken
Supporting Verses:
“Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.” (Matthew 12:34, ESV) This verse supports the idea that purity of the heart is foundational to true purity.
“Do not bring worthless offerings again, [Your] incense is repulsive to Me; [Your] New Moon and Sabbath [observances], the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure wickedness [your sin, your injustice, your wrongdoing] and [the squalor of] the festive assembly.” (Isaiah 1:13, AMP)
This verse shows God’s desire for our hearts over simply the action of obedience.
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (John 14:15, ESV) This verse shows that obedience flows from a heart of love for God, not just a desire to follow rules.
Action Steps:
- Reflect on the reasons behind your desire for purity
- Evaluate the state of your relationship with God
- Consider areas where you may be relying on willpower over relationship with God
Topics Covered:
- Sexual purity
- Purity culture
- Relationship with God
- Lukewarm Christianity
- Discipleship
Transcript
**This transcript is auto-generated. Please forgive any strange wordings!**
Rachel Grit 0:00
Hello and welcome back to the True Grit podcast, where we are seeking, finding and living abundant life. This podcast is for you. If you’re exhausted by the noise of the world and the chaos in your life and in your brain, and you’re wanting to get authentically and sustainably closer to Jesus while cutting down that chaos in your life. I am your host, Rachel Grit. I am an 88 year wife to my best friend, a mother of three, a multi passionate business owner, a stepmom, a co parent, a writer, and most importantly, I was a lost sheep. Jesus left the 99 to find me, and now I invite you to seek, find and live the abundant life our Redeemer promises with me, whether you are carting kids around, you’re curled up with a mug of something delicious. You’re dashing in between meetings or folding mountains of laundry, you are welcome here. Let’s dig in together today. We’ve got a very special guest with us, my darling husband, Cameron. What we’re gonna be talking about today is the least awkward topic in the world, navigating sexual purity in a hyper sexualized world. So as two people who are currently married to each other and who used to be married to different people, other
Cameron Gibbons 1:09
people that are not each other,
Rachel Grit 1:10
that are not each other, right? We kind of have a very interesting perspective on this, especially with growing up in the church during the dawn of purity culture, or, I guess, during the height of purity culture, and then being married after having gone through that purity culture kind of conditioning, what happens when your marriage falls apart and divorce and dating after marriage, what sexuality looks like there, and then being in a brand new marriage. So we’ve
Cameron Gibbons 1:39
got and you are a woman.
Rachel Grit 1:41
I am a woman
Cameron Gibbons 1:41
and I am a man. You
Rachel Grit 1:42
are a man. Yeah?
Cameron Gibbons 1:44
Glad we have different perspectives from that. Yeah, as well. Yeah, absolutely.
Rachel Grit 1:47
So we are just kind of gonna go off the cuff here. We’ve got a little outline, but if there are any questions, comments, concerns, things you would like us to kind of dig deeper into, feel free to leave a comment or shoot us an email. My email is Rachel at Rachel grit.com you can send emails there, and before we get started, make sure that you subscribe on whatever podcast platform you are listening on. All right, perfect. Let’s get into it. Let’s talk about sex. Let’s
Cameron Gibbons 2:19
grit into it.
Rachel Grit 2:23
Let’s grit into it. So I guess the goal here is just to kind of have an honest, Grace filled conversation about the topic of sex and all the things that go along with that. I’m not feeling awkward at all. What are you talking about? So the first thing I want to get into is just the topic of purity overall, and why I take issue with sexual purity being just referred to as purity. I mean growing up, especially as someone who went to a Christian school, we got the whole talk in the fifth grade, where we learned about our changing bodies, and we got a little demonstration with a rose that got crumpled and was never the same. You know, all those different illustrations. When you unwrap a birthday present, it can’t be wrapped again. If you rip a piece of paper, it can’t be unwripped. Basically, you can, though you can, depending on the situation. But essentially, the the idea being like, once you’ve lost your virginity, that’s it, your damaged goods. And I actually know several people who lost their virgin Well, quote, virginity. Their first sexual encounter was non consensual. They essentially were raped, and from that point forward, they were like, Well, I’m not a virgin anymore, and that was the goal, so I might as well just sleep around. And they had developed even like, deeper trauma around the idea of virginity, because in their mind, even though it wasn’t their choice, they lost it. I knew a girl in high school who this had happened to, and it was just heartbreaking, like she was so convinced that, like, well, I don’t have anything to offer my future husband anyway, so why even worry about it? I think
Cameron Gibbons 3:57
that’s the issue with purity culture being explained in that way. I think that purity is important, like sexual purity before marriage, the example that you were given about like, virginity is the only purity that matters, and that once you’ve lost your virginity, that that’s what you’re offering your husband? Yeah, you are no longer pureed. I understand making a case for not having sex before marriage. That’s one thing which
Rachel Grit 4:27
for the record, we did not have sex before marriage. We were not physically intimate in any way. So we’re that’s the point of view that we’re coming from on this, right?
Cameron Gibbons 4:35
I think that’s important, not having sex before marriage. But this whole concept that you’re explaining if I was explained to you where, like, if you’re no longer a virgin, then you’re damaged. Is, in my opinion, absolute garbage.
Rachel Grit 4:50
Yeah, it’s complete garbage. That’s just hurtful. I mean, if that’s the truth, then you and I had nothing to offer each other on the day of our wedding, right? And that’s very much not the case. Detail. On that, but that’s not the case.
Cameron Gibbons 5:05
And so presenting it that way causes kids to believe that if they were assaulted, then it’s gone. So it doesn’t matter anymore. Like, that’s not the point, right? I think
Rachel Grit 5:16
it also introduces this idea of like, okay, what is the line? What is too far? If the idea is to maintain virginity, okay, where does that start? Right? And what is compromising your virginity? And that’s what I experienced like in high school, where you know you’re like, Okay, I can make a case for this being the line. And then before you know it, especially when your partner is pressuring you, that line creeps further and further, and there’s always a way to justify it. And so the idea of just focusing so hard on sexual purity, as purity and as this, like, super prized thing, is just so damaging. And then your wedding night happens, and you’re like, Okay, so I’m now just supposed to, like, flip this switch and be this, like sexual being, a la, son of Solomon. Like, no, your your breasts are like fawns gazing grazing at the well, and you’re like, ah, hills, the
Cameron Gibbons 6:09
hills or hills.
Rachel Grit 6:11
My neck is the tower. Your teeth are flock of sheep. Hey, boy.
Cameron Gibbons 6:21
No, I think so I was reading it. I was reading today this book called, I think it’s just called Garden City by John Mark comer. Really great book. Really great author. I’ve read multiple of his books. And in there I was learning about, in the Torah, there are, like, 613 laws. Well, one of the things I learned today that I don’t think is very common knowledge, and I could be wrong, is that one of the reasons why the Pharisees were so strict is because they they believed that they were in exile, like moving from Babylon into not their their home, their Homeland, but still under Roman rule was because they didn’t follow the Torah, the laws in the Torah. So they added laws to the Torah as guidelines for ensuring that the laws aren’t broken. And it was called The Mishna, I believe. And there were over 1500 added laws, really, of like, for example, like the Sabbath, defining what is work? How far can you walk? Hmm, until that’s defined as work, all these extra rules around, where is the line? Where is the line? Yeah. Like, what you’re doing, when are you actually sinning? Yeah, and they were trying to draw that line. So it’s not like that’s a unique thing that Christians or, you know, Pharisees ever have. Like, it’s not a new thing that people are struggling with. So like, yes, it’s very much an ongoing or repeated process that, you know, we keep running into where, if a law is not explicit or really obvious. Where that line is, we start to create our own to try to clarify what we don’t understand. And that was one thing that Jesus took a really, really harsh stand against. The book talked about the example of the Pharisees commenting about the disciples walking through, you know, the corn field, and picking up pieces of corn or wheat or whatever it was to snack on as they walked through the field. And called that sinning, because it was considered work. It wasn’t considered work in the Torah. It was considered work in the Mishna, which was man created, which was created by the Pharisees. So it was not sin. When they were calling it sin, they were defining it themselves. It was breaking their rules. It was breaking their rules, yes, not God’s rules. So
Rachel Grit 8:50
essentially reducing God’s law, which is created for a very specific purpose, which is to create unity and redemption with him, reducing it to this man made thing that kind of buys status, right? Yeah, wow, oh, I didn’t know
Cameron Gibbons 9:03
that. And kind of came from a place of fear. I mean, that’s implied. It never actually says, like, why the Pharisees did what they did. But that’s kind of the gist that you get, I think, when you look at the New Testament and try to understand where the Pharisees were coming from. And the book also talked about how, like, the majority of Jesus, healings were on the Sabbath, and that he, like Jesus, didn’t have shy from that fight. He like actively, it seemed like he actively pursued it, and was trying to make a point to call out the fact that these added laws are irrelevant and have nothing to do with God’s law, like they missed the point of the Sabbath, where man is not made for the Sabbath. The Sabbath is made for man, right? And so when we look at like the law of the Sabbath, it’s about giving man rest. And. You know, acknowledging what God did on the seventh day and how we are designed to be is rest. So the way that the author talked about, like, the questions to ask yourself when you’re trying to do something, if you’re if you’re actually trying to, trying to observe the Sabbath, is, is this something that provides me rest. And is this something that I could consider worship? Hmm? So for some people, you know, that’s going for a run, some people find that very relaxing, right? And some people, those people, some people consider it equivalent to torture or root canal. Yeah, I got bullied
Rachel Grit 10:38
into doing a half marathon when I was 17 or 18, I want to say, and I still haven’t mentally recovered from that,
Cameron Gibbons 10:46
and I chose to do a half marathon. And, like, loved
Rachel Grit 10:49
it. You did, yeah, one of the pictures on your dating profile was,
Cameron Gibbons 10:53
was me finishing the half marathon. This guy’s cute. I had a fun time.
Rachel Grit 10:58
But tying that back to, like, the idea of sexual purity, just reducing purity as a whole to sexual purity, and creating this culture where we’re looking for the line is just like, you know, the environment that the Pharisees created. It’s missing the point of what purity is. Overall, purity is so much more than sexual purity, and that’s why it drives me absolutely insane when people just refer to sexual purity as purity, because when we define purity in its entirety, as just being based in sexuality, it takes off the table what purity actually is. Purity of the heart determines all else you know when you are so deeply rooted in love for God and wanting to obey Him in seeking His will. That is really like the scripture says the heart is what is it out of the heart? The mouth speaks when our heart is obeying Jesus and loving Jesus and seeking that purity of heart, sexual purity, is a natural byproduct. So my main issue with the definition of purity that we have in today’s culture is that it’s only sexual purity. So when we’re taught, if you’re in a church, and someone goes today, we’re going to talk about purity. You know exactly what they’re going to say, and it’s going to be a talk about sex. And I really think, and have experienced, the fact that that misses the point that is such a small subset of what purity is overall. And it reduces obeying God to this game of finding where the line is and how far can I go, and can I just keep pushing the line. It reduces obedience to essentially seeing how far you can go without getting in trouble. And we see in Isaiah, God tells Israel, stop bringing me your worthless gifts, essentially saying, like you’re bringing these sacrifices, you’re doing these rituals, but you don’t give your hearts to me. That’s what I want. You’re wasting your time, and you’re wasting mine. When you’re going through the motions and reducing purity as a whole to sexual purity, and introducing this game of where is the line, it reduces this beautiful act of obedience to just an act. There’s not the heart tied into it. It’s not because of anything other than being afraid to break the rules, and that is not what God wants. And so purity Overall, I really, really strongly believe that we need to stop defining purity by our sexuality only, and instead, talk to our kids, talk to our teenagers, talk to single adults, even people who are divorced and dating, purity of the person, purity overall, purity of the heart. And really, that just comes down to genuine connection with God and genuinely seeking God, and when that’s your motivation, Jesus says in the New Testament, if you love me, you will keep my commands. So that’s a bypro sexual purity is a byproduct of heart purity. And so I’ve gotten in so many debates on Facebook where people are like, Oh, so you’re saying it’s fine to just sleep around. If we’re not talking to our kids about being sexually pure, like purity, if we’re not demanding purity, then we’re just permitting and encouraging debauchery. I’m like, No, I
Cameron Gibbons 14:06
think what you just said is really important acting as that person on Facebook you’re arguing with, um, like, if we’re not demanding purity, yeah, it, it shouldn’t be a demand. And I think this is this goes, I might not use the same words you did, but this goes back to what you were saying. Were saying before about your heart posture. We are all human. And the church often refers to, like the flesh, dying to the flesh, right, dying to yourself in that way. And like this is battle between flesh and, you know, the spiritual world. And even I refer to when I’m struggling with something and need to suppress a thought or a emotion that is not of God I can I refer to it as something in my flesh is trying to do this, yeah, or wants to do a. Whatever, and I need to confess that. Pray for strength to, you know, avoid doing that thing or change my heart for that. But anyway, long story short, you were talking about how if you’re if you are not having sex before marriage because you’re afraid and you’re just trying to be obedient out of discipline, or, in some cases, fear, like you’re probably gonna fail, yeah, because your flesh is weak, right? Like it’s that’s not going to work. One thing I’ve been learning more about through a lot of the podcasts on the Bible project, is what it means to be an image bearer of God, like God made us in His image. How do you treat the image of God? Right? Would you put the image of God in those scenarios, or, let’s say it’s just a cross for an example, like, how do people treat a cross in their home? Would they light it on fire? Probably not. Oh, this is really, would they rub it in the dirt? Probably not. And how much more of, how much more of a symbol of Christ is your body? Right? Whoa, do you put your body in those scenarios that you wouldn’t put a wooden cross? A lot of
Rachel Grit 16:19
people would feel the same way about like the American flag, right? It’s not in a symbol of God like it’s a secular symbol at the end of the day. That’s really interesting. I’ve never thought about it that way. So
Cameron Gibbons 16:31
if you’re an image bearer, you need to treat yourself as you would across
Rachel Grit 16:38
it’s really easy to take like, your body and your experience and not view it as what it is in God’s eyes. Yeah, like, it’s really easy to say, like, oh, well, a cross is different, because that’s sacred and all this represents but wow, that’s really cool. I never thought about that. How much more of a symbol of Christ and His sacrifice, are our bodies. And
Cameron Gibbons 17:02
I think one of the questions you have here, that I thought was really cool, is you laid out like, Why do you think Christian singleness and purity means such complicated and emotional topics? I think that it’s really an emotional topic because you grew up in your body. It is a very difficult thing, and probably very challenging thing for people to say, my body is not mine, right? And because you’ve had it your entire life, yeah? Like, it is the one thing that you could say, like, is yours, right? It’s It is me. Like, we think of our bodies as me. So if you’re giving that to God, you’re giving everything. There’s, what’s the verse that
Rachel Grit 17:42
I’m trying to think of? I read it yesterday. I think it was in first or second Peter that talks about, like, presenting our bodies as a holy sacrifice, living sacrifice, to God. Yeah. And I think like, kind of coming back to the point that you were making about, it’s, it’s really, really difficult to look at our bodies as gods, and to kind of part with the idea of being in control of our bodies as God’s body, as God’s body, essentially not like our body is a God, right? Yeah, yeah, to be very clear, like you were saying, the flesh is weak, and so that that willpower does not work. It’s like you can get to the finish line and technically be a virgin. That was the case in my first marriage. I was very technically a virgin on my wedding night, but same only barely that, when the reason behind something is just doing it because you should. Not only is it essentially worthless in God’s eyes, in terms of the sacrifice, because it’s not the heart is not tied in but two, when that, when you’re doing that in your own strength, you’re gonna fail, even if it’s just mentally like you and I took very seriously even our mental purity. Yeah, when we were dating like there were multiple times, which was the hardest part. It was very difficult. There were multiple times. Multiple times where you, like, in the middle of the evening, just got up and left my apartment. Because you’re like, nope. This isn’t Nope. This is not going anywhere good. I’m gonna go. And I always was like, oh, shoot, I don’t remember doing that. You did multiple times. It’s like, seven. We set a curfew for ourselves of 11pm we would not be alone in our either of our apartments together after 11pm and there were multiple times where we called it a night early. And normally it was you doing it because things were not headed anywhere good. And that was that was always so I was so impressed with you. I was like, I need to lock this guy down. This is a husband material right here, but seriously, like when your motivation is achieving something human because of human reasons, the strength behind it is human, but when that motivation and that desire to obey is coming from a genuine relationship with God, that’s so much different, suddenly it’s not your strength. Causing you to get up and walk away when the situation turns pretty dicey. It’s the Spirit moving within you and going, Okay, this is not good. You know, this is not good. Here’s what you need to do, and that is always going to be so much more effective. Like, think about a kid that obeys their parent because they’re afraid of their parent, or just because their parents said to do something, versus when that child is so deeply bonded and understands the reason for the ask and trusts the parent, love and deep true relationship makes obedience a completely different thing, and transitions it from just being completing an act that was requested into an act of worship. Making
Cameron Gibbons 20:39
the comment about worship is definitely the key there, getting up and walking away when one, I don’t remember doing that, but that’s awesome. Yeah, you that’s really cool. Really cool. That’s great. I’m really excited for myself, but if I heard of someone doing that, it would definitely make me think like, yeah, that’s a sacrifice to God. Saying one, I trust you that this is what’s best for me. I’m not doing this just because I should, like, one that’s a that’s an excellent like tactic, if you need to use that tactic, like, go for it. But you can’t do
Rachel Grit 21:11
something you’re not supposed to do if you’re not engaged in the situation
Cameron Gibbons 21:15
on where, yeah, and sometimes you do just got to run, yeah, which I had also done before, like, physically go for a run when it’s not from the place of, like a heart posture, or, like, acknowledging God saying, like hey, like you designed me. This is what’s best for me, and I want to honor your design for my life because I truly want your will, not my own. Then things like that just kind of happen, right? Where? If I want to put your will above my own, my will? Yeah, I want to stay for sure, but it’s not my will like yours be done, right? And then you start being able to, like, hear from the spirit and feel that moving and and then take action. I think one of the things that makes it such a comp, like, especially, makes it an emotional topic for Christians today too, is it really highlights, who’s on the throne, right? Are you on the throne of your life? Or is God on the throne of your life? Because if you’re putting yourself in those situations and staying there, then you’re the one making the decisions your will is the one that’s being acted on. And being confronted with that is hurtful, especially if that’s not what you’re trying not to do that, then you’re like, Oh, crap. Oh absolutely
Rachel Grit 22:46
I I had a friend when I was single, who she and I were really close, and she had confided in me that she was sleeping with her boyfriend, and I had to talk with her about it, and this was before I was dating at all. And I was like, Look, you know that you shouldn’t be doing this. I love you. That’s why I’m saying this. And it was a really awkward conversation, and things were weird for a minute with us after that, and I even told her, like, look, when I start dating, you have every right to hold me accountable, to get up in my business and see if I’m making the right choices, because if I’m not, I’m being a hypocrite. It’s easy for me to talk about this when I’m not dating anyone, but sure you can absolutely call me out when I start dating. And so these conversations are really difficult, these kinds of things. It’s a really awkward conversation to have. It’s a really awkward topic to even think about. I think you’re exactly right. It highlights who is on the throne. It’s easy to say, Oh yes, Jesus. I love Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. But when it comes down to it, when it is 7:45pm and things are getting a little too intense, and you have the option to either keep going or get up and walk away, those are the moments where it really shows who is on the throne. I
Cameron Gibbons 23:59
think, as a guy, that’s even more insanely important, right, being the identified spiritual leader of the relationship you do need, like, as the guy you do need the partner to be on board and supporting you in that. If, Rachel, if I was saying, like, I just gotta go, and you would have, you would have, like, pleaded for me to stay and tried to do something to get me to stay that would have been so much harder. It’s
Rachel Grit 24:24
giving pot of her spice.
Cameron Gibbons 24:27
If your girlfriend, fiance, whatever, is not supporting you like that, I would start to really question whether or not you should be with that person. Oh, absolutely. Um, because that’s gotten that would that’s what got me in trouble in the past, is that a partner was not on board. Despite me expressing that I didn’t want to have, like, sleep with anyone before marriage, they were not supportive or on board, which then is just a giant temptation, yeah? Which again, the flesh it. This week. So that can be really challenging. So for any any guys actually listening like that, I think that should be a big wake up call. Or I hope it is, that if your partner is not on board or supportive of that and assists you in that goal of replacing your will with Gods, that is not a partner that you really want to be with. If they’re not going to be supportive of of God’s will, your stated desire for God’s will in your life on that front, then they’re not going to be supportive in other areas, absolutely.
Rachel Grit 25:33
And I think that you know, coming from the female perspective, that’s very much something that women need to be aware of as well. You know, I dated quite a bit more than you did, I think, and I’ve been in relationships where, you know, the guy was very pushy about moving things forward physically. And I’ve also been in relationships, you know, when I got divorced, I decided, like, Okay, this is incredibly important to me. I’m going to be very strict with this, and every single person that I talked to, one of the first things that I made sure was clear was like, if you are not on the same page about sexual purity being incredibly important to you and non negotiable, this is not going to work, and it’s so easy As women too. You know, there’s that whole cliche about women will give sex for love. Men will give love for sex. And while I don’t 100% agree with that as a blanket statement, I do think that some of the principles ring true, and for women, we can tend to especially when a partner is manipulative, want to give in and want to make the other person happy, give them what they want, and a lot of times that immediate, physical, what am I trying to say here, having someone physically stand in front of you and ask for something and you give it to them, that’s a lot faster gratification than telling someone who’s in front of your Face know and knowing that God is happy with you, because you don’t immediately get that like you don’t see God smiling at you, you don’t hear God audibly go, thank you. You did a good job. It’s a lot easier to give into a person who’s in front of you asking for something. And so as women, a lot of times, guys tend to be very pushy in relationships, while, really a lot of a lot of people are pushy. My point is that, like,
Cameron Gibbons 27:29
I’m not gonna I’m the guy in this conversation. And I’m not gonna debate that, that it’s often the guy. But I think when you’re talking about like, you don’t get that instant gratification. Like you don’t but I will say, and want to point out that, like we also take a very harsh stance on deception and lying. Like you and I both drive the speed limit, yeah, and it probably pisses a lot of people off on the road. Yeah? Again, we know, we know it does, but I think, and we are not sinless in any sense, yeah, not by any stretch, but the things that we are aware of, we try really, really, really, really, really hard to correct, confess and adjust. And I will say, like over time. And it’s over time. It’s not instant gratification. It does create this closeness with God that is not there otherwise. So from a guy, from a from a standpoint of even, like pornography or lying or anything, any form of sin, I used to think that, and we’ve talked about this before, I used to think that, you know, sin separating us from God was a thing prior to the crucifixion, because you get that story and in Sunday school where there’s the cross over the chasm, and sin has separated this from God, but the cross bridges that gap, and now we can get to God, no veil, right, right? But I believe, personally, that if you are sinning, especially willfully, that is separating you from God, even if you are a Christian, and that it becomes more difficult to hear from God. It gets more difficult to feel the Spirit moving. It gets more difficult to confront sin in your own life, it gets more difficult to and then you said in the past, like to worship, yeah, because you’ve got this, this thing on your mind that you may feel guilty about, and all of that just continues to pile up, and you just can’t get out of this, like black hole of sin that’s been drawing you in. So anyway, I just wanted to point that out something that’s I’m passionate about. No,
Rachel Grit 29:25
I agree completely. I mean, I’ll be vulnerable as well, and we obviously have talked a lot about this. But before my first marriage, before I got engaged, I ended up cheating on my then boyfriend, soon to be fiance, it’s a very, very complicated story that involves a lot of nefarious intentions and long story short, I was taken advantage of by a guy who is much older than I was. I still put myself in that position. I take full responsibility for it. I. There were some dynamics at play. You put
Cameron Gibbons 30:02
yourself in that position in the past. Yes, I think the way you phrased that sentence sounds like you still put yourself in them. Oh,
Rachel Grit 30:08
no, no, no, no, in the past. In this situation, I knew I was putting myself in a situation where physical things happening between me and the sky were inevitable, and so for the longest time, that was the biggest wedge between God and myself. I did not tell my ex husband before we got married. We had been married for two years before I confessed to him, and so that two and a half years was agony. It was. I couldn’t sit in a church without having like, a physical, visceral reaction, I essentially decided that, okay, I’m not gonna tell this person, because I know if they find out, really bad things are gonna happen. So I am protecting them by keeping this a secret. And okay, if I’m keeping this a secret, it’s clear I can’t have a relationship with God, so I am choosing the health and well being of my partner over a relationship with God. And obviously looking back now, that is such an incredibly skewed view, and that was me putting my partner above God. But I just remember so desperately longing to be connected with God. And I would watch, there was a girl that I went to church with. I would watch her YouTube videos, and it was so clear how joyful she was about her faith, how open she was about how much she loved Jesus, and she just had this joy. And I remember being so incredibly jealous of her, and sitting there going, I wish I could have that connection with God. And I think my case is a little bit more extreme in terms of feeling that separation, like I couldn’t sit in church and not be like crawling out of my skin, and just that day that I decided, okay, this is enough, and came clean and decided that, okay, I am going to choose God and trust God and do the right thing over this fear that I have, just remembering that feeling of relief and going, I am never going to let anything come between me and God again, because it really, truly was two and a half years of absolute agony. So whether we realize it or not, whether it’s a very, very obvious divide, or one that’s a little bit more subtle, which I actually think the subtle ones are more dangerous. Yeah, whatever the divide is, it’s there, and sin keeps us from God. And sexual sin is sin. But
Cameron Gibbons 32:36
I think that’s where sin is sin. There’s I believe that there’s not a greater sin or a lesser sin. I do think sin of commission, where you are into you were willingly engaging in sin, is something that is more harmful to yourself than sin of omission, where you’re just not doing something and you should. I’m happy to be completely wrong on that. I don’t know how sin works with our relationship with God. In detail, I will happily ask him about that. But for now, I don’t know, and I don’t have a strong belief either way. But one of the things that and I suck at references in the Bible like that’s just my a huge weak point for me. Same but because you keep hearing us say, like, oh, in the Bible, it says something like, blah, blah, blah, blah, which definitely check us on those. Just google the words we’ll probably find you. Help you find like, the verse or reference that we’re talking about and correct us. I’ll try to put them in the show notes. That would be great. There’s a part in the Bible that talks about being covered in the dust of your Rabbi’s feet, like you are following so closely to your rabbi that the dust that they are kicking up by walking gets on you. And if you are not close, what you’re talking about Rachel like you felt far away you’re not getting you’re not close enough right to be covered by that dust. Yeah, I
Rachel Grit 34:05
think that’s so at odds with what I like to call cultural Christianity. Like especially in America, there are so many people who would consider themselves Christians, but at the end of the day, aren’t willing to really lay down themselves, who I guess would qualify as lukewarm. And we kind of are taught like, Oh, you just give your life to Jesus, and then that’s it. You’re saved. And I do think that praying, the prayer of salvation saves us, but our actions really show what’s going on in our hearts.
Cameron Gibbons 34:40
I mean, I really enjoyed the topic of lukewarm Christianity, like I’m really I’m really passionate about discipleship, true discipleship and apprenticeship. I like using the word apprentice better than disciples, because disciple doesn’t really mean a whole lot in our language. I think apprentice is a better word to describe what Jesus intends. For us, when you are lukewarm and Jesus says that He will spit you out of their mouth, you are not an apprentice. Your heart is not in following Jesus and actually replacing your will with his. There’s a book that I would recommend to everyone that I sent you when we started dating, or maybe before we started dating, yeah, called the insanity of God by Nick Ripken. It’s a very graphic book when it comes to some of the atrocities that happened during the war in Sudan in like the 90s. So fair warning, if you choose to read it, that that is something that you will encounter that’s like the first half of the book. The second half of the book talks a lot about how Christianity grows in countries where it’s illegal, and the experiences of the Christians in those countries. And I think I’ve heard a few times, especially recently, about how Christians are afraid of, you know, the United States becoming a place where Christianity is legal. And while I don’t want it to be legal, if it’s God’s will, that that happens like, okay, fine, I think that would truly separate the lukewarm from the hot water apprentices or disciples of Jesus.
Rachel Grit 36:18
Yeah, absolutely. And I think like having that heart for Jesus, where you truly have laid everything down, makes that obedience so much easier. The point that I was trying to make with the problem of lukewarm Christianity or cultural Christianity, just being Christian by culture and not truly by heart, there is no point in trying to stick to these stringent rules when your heart is not in it, because they’re just that rules. And there’s not that relationship behind it. There’s not that drive behind it. But what that boils down to isn’t an issue with sexual purity. It comes back to the heart like we’ve been talking about. And so if you are someone who is wrestling with sexual purity, I would very strongly recommend you take a step back and look at your heart and your relationship with God over all, because you cannot expect yourself to muster up the strength to as a human, solely empowered by your humanity, do something as difficult as remain sexually pure. It has to start with that holistic purity, that whole body, that heart purity, and that can only come from a real, true, deep, genuine and growing relationship with God. That can only come from a connection to the vine. That verse that talks about Jesus being the vine, and we are the branches, and we cannot bring forth life. We cannot produce fruit if we are not connected to the vine. So trying to maintain sexual purity, which is mental, which is physical, which is verbal, it encompasses so many more areas than just like, Where can I put my body on your body and still be okay with God like that is not even the half of it. When it comes to trying to maintain genuine, holistic sexual period, has to start with that heart. So I would very strongly encourage you take some inventory of where you are at with Christ before even thinking about, okay, what are the physical boundaries, which we will talk about in future episodes. We will talk about specific physical boundaries and lines and all of that. Instead of wondering about the lines, take a step back. Put a pause on everything, and first, just focus on getting to know your Creator and ensuring that your relationship with him is the source of your drive for purity, and that it is purity in its whole sense, not just sexual purity, and not just physical sexual purity. And even further than that, not just technical physical sexual purity. There’s so many layers to it. We are almost at an hour, so we should probably wrap it up.
Cameron Gibbons 39:06
Well, I want to say one more thing. Okay, the way you’re, you’re describing it, is, is making me think a lot about when we when we read the New Testament, a lot of times, at least when I do you, like, look at the Pharisees, and you go, Oh, those, those people are terrible. Like, how did they not realize that they were, like, completely off track, and not that I’m on track at all. I need to really continue to evaluate myself and my own relationship with God as well, which is where you know, honestly, our marriage is great because we talk, we have these conversations, our marriage is really to evaluate. I really like you a lot. I really like you. This is like, I have so much fun with you, but when you look at the Pharisees, they are talking about technical adherence to the law, and that’s why they set up all these other rules, is because they want to be technically right with God, and I’m making an assumption here, that they want to be technically right. Mm. So that they can get out from under Roman oppression. Um, they came out of Babylon, right? And then they came back from out of Babylon, where they were exiled, believing that they were exiled because they didn’t follow the 10 Commandments, or the the Torah, the laws and the Torah. And now they are under Roman oppression, believing that if they can just follow the laws, they will get out from under Roman oppression, and they’ll be right with God. So getting right with God was not about loving God. It was about getting what they wanted.
Rachel Grit 40:34
Oh, that makes a lot of sense, because there were so many cycles of Israel rebelling, being taken into exile or into captivity, then being redeemed by God, restored to their land, and then the whole process happening over and over this, oh, I wrote it this morning in my Bible study. It was like rebellion, consequences, repentance, return, and it was just this cycle of they would rebel, and then there would be consequences for it, and they’d be like, oh, man, we messed up. We got a turn. And then they would repent and turn back to God, and God would save them. And then it would just keep going and going and going, because
Cameron Gibbons 41:11
it was all based on, at least, I think, how I feel about it. I’m not an Old Testament scholar, but the return to me, looks like it’s based on trying to get right with God, so that God blesses them, returns them to the the Promised Land, gets them to the place where they’re able to, you know, be a people that God protects and blesses, instead of, you know, partnering with God, which was the original design with With Adam and Eve, like God’s creating these partners in ruling the world, not just following his laws, because they’re there, right? And like the Adam and Eve, let’s say, experiment or test failed, and then, with Israel, continued to fail over and over and over again, until Jesus came around and finally fulfilled the original design of what God intended for humanity, of this partnership with himself, it just so turned out that himself was the only one that could finally partner with himself to then to then pay the price of of Sid and all the rebellion up until that point?
Rachel Grit 42:23
Yeah, absolutely. And as far as bringing that back to a practical application, what is the reason for your desire to seek obedience? If you’re listening to this podcast, you are probably seeking, or at least curious about sexual purity in dating. So I would be very, very curious to hear, what is your reason for obedience. Maybe you say, Okay, I grew up Christian. I am a Christian. I love Jesus. Okay, great, but what is the reason? When you get down to it, there’s that concept of, like, what ask why three times, and then you’ll get to the root of the issue. Whatever your reason is for wanting to pursue sexual purity. Ask yourself, why? And then once you get to that, dig deeper. And then once you get to that, dig yet another layer deeper. I am going to put together a journaling worksheet with some prompts to help you, kind of dig deeper with these questions and put what we’ve talked about today into practice. So check out the show notes for that, and we will, I’m I’m getting tired.
Cameron Gibbons 43:26
Well, yeah, we can kind of end it there, but I think at some point I’d love to talk about, you know, our experience with kind of coming to face to face with where our own decisions brought us in life and how praying, our respective dangerous prayers turned out, which, at least for me, that prayer came from a place of, you know, this sexual sin, ongoing sexual sin that I could not get rid of, and I needed God to rebuild me. And he did.
Rachel Grit 44:00
He most certainly that
Cameron Gibbons 44:01
is a fun process. Yeah, that’s going with a lot of sarcasm there. That’s going
Rachel Grit 44:07
to be a very, very fun episode. So check out the show notes to get that journaling worksheet,
Cameron Gibbons 44:13
the journaling worksheet and all of the references that we forgot. There is
Rachel Grit 44:18
going to be a lot of resources in the show notes, the books that we’ve mentioned, I’ll try to round up the verses that we’ve mentioned. Okay, great. There will be all those links there. Or you can go to Rachel grit.com/six just the number six. Rachel grit.com/six to see the show notes, read the transcript all the different things that are associated with this, but thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you cam. This was really fun. I like hanging out with you, but yeah, so thank you so much for listening again. If you have any questions, any comments, anything you’d like to dig deeper on, feel free to send me an e. Know Rachel at Rachel grit.com and we will absolutely take a peek at that and consider addressing it in a future episode. I did create a resource to help you find identify and make a plan to eliminate sources, sources. So if you find identify and eliminate sources of noise and chaos in your life, so you can better connect with God and hear from him. You can go to Rachel grit.com/noise journal that’s all one word, no dashes or spaces or anything. Rachel grit.com/noise journal that is a free download that you can hop on. It’ll take one hour of your time, and it’ll guide you through some journaling prompts to help you find ways to get closer to God. So thank you for joining me. Thank you again, Cameron. I love you, and you’re really fun to be around, and we will see you in the next one. Bye, this is
Cameron Gibbons 45:51
fine. It is fine. It is fine. You’re fine. You’re fine. I was gonna say that, but didn’t know if it was
Rachel Grit 45:57
appropriate. Can edit it out. It’s fine.
Cameron Gibbons 46:01
I don’t know any of my sex jokes. Appropriateness Cameron, okay, yeah, there, there may be some. There may be some, Maybell, I don’t know where that German is.
Rachel Grit 46:12
Oh, that was Swedish, okay, summer blowout,
Speaker 1 46:20
talking about sex there big summer blowout.
Unknown Speaker 46:29
So, okay, okay, imagine, stop it.
Rachel Grit 46:36
I can’t with you. This is gonna be really hard to edit. This is already really fun. Good,
Unknown Speaker 46:42
yeah, this is great. Oh,
Rachel Grit 46:43
okay, the cat’s on your puzzle again, ah,
Unknown Speaker 46:47
why do you think my puzzles come through?
Rachel Grit 46:50
Why are you doing this? She’s like, you know? Why? Sinatra, there. She’s gone. All
Unknown Speaker 46:56
right, I’m gonna grab some things to throw.
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